uPortal IRC Logs-2007-08-30

Owned by Apereo Infrastructure
Last updated: Oct 09, 2007Version comment

[07:55:39 EDT(-0400)] * jayshao (n=jayshao@jayshao.rutgers.edu) has joined ##uportal
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[09:58:45 EDT(-0400)] * EricDalquist (n=dalquist@bohemia.doit.wisc.edu) has joined ##uportal
[09:58:53 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> good morning
[10:39:55 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> Anyone else awake?
[10:43:46 EDT(-0400)] * pberry (n=pberry@waldorf.CSUChico.EDU) has joined ##uportal
[10:44:15 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> okay, who narc'd on me yesterday? I got busted for talking about CAS (it was really more about maven)
[10:44:28 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and by "busted" I mean "Scott B. tried to help me."
[10:44:32 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> lol
[10:50:16 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> http://blogs.sun.com/watt/resource/jvm-options-list.html
[10:50:27 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> that's a nice list
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[11:31:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that it is
[11:31:09 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> adding it to the bookmarks
[11:31:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I need to go and do more JVM/GC research on 1.6 one of these days
[11:34:53 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I'm starting to see very abnormal memory usage
[11:34:57 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> it's staying very low
[11:35:11 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and not going into the spike/drop cycle like I expect it to
[11:35:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> what is the GC doing?
[11:35:46 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> well, I hate to admit it, but I'm not logging GC
[11:35:54 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> here is the 26th http://seaborn.csuchico.edu/stats/portal/?Machine=All&amp;Type=Hours&amp;Field=usedmem&amp;Month=8&amp;Day=26&amp;Year=2007&amp;Hour=0&amp;Finish=23&amp;Combined=selected&amp;.submit=Submit&amp;.cgifields=Combined&amp;.cgifields=Machine
[11:36:08 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> here was yesterday http://seaborn.csuchico.edu/stats/portal/?Machine=All&amp;Type=Hours&amp;Field=usedmem&amp;Month=8&amp;Day=29&amp;Year=2007&amp;Hour=0&amp;Finish=23&amp;Combined=selected&amp;.submit=Submit&amp;.cgifields=Combined&amp;.cgifields=Machine
[11:36:39 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the second one is more what we see
[11:36:48 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> really? ah, that's good!
[11:36:57 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> using the parallel new collector and CMS tenured collector
[11:36:59 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well
[11:37:08 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> it depends what GC approach the JVM is taking
[11:37:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we don't ever see full GCs
[11:37:34 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the ParNew collector runs very frequently (every minute or so) on our eden space
[11:37:48 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we keep it pretty simple
[11:37:49 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> CATALINA_OPTS="-server -Xms1024m -Xmx1536m -Dsun.net.inetaddr.ttl=0"
[11:38:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the ConcurrentMarkSweep GC runs constantly in a background thread pruning tenured space
[11:38:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> you need to enable JMX
[11:38:34 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> then you can connect using JConsole and see which collectors are being used
[11:38:39 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and the time spent doing collections
[11:38:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and per-heap space usage
[11:39:47 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> oh. right. /realizes I'm out of my element
[11:39:56 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[11:40:29 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> oi ... the spider web of wiki pages makes my head hurt at times
[11:42:38 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> heh, yeah...that will happen
[11:42:44 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> the JA-SIG wiki especially
[11:43:02 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[11:43:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I think today is going to be a dedicated 'clean up the wiki' day
[11:43:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we'll see how far I get ...
[11:43:21 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> luckily in our department space we have one person who constantly is looking at the new stuff coming in and sorting it out
[11:43:30 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we need one of those
[11:43:33 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that isn't me (wink)
[11:43:37 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> heh
[11:43:41 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and one for each space
[11:44:13 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[11:48:06 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> ideally the new steering committee can give a little guidance (not policy) on what each space should be
[11:48:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I think we have a pretty good idea of what they should be
[11:48:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> just getting someone to maintain it and make it cohesive
[11:48:39 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> The disparate nature of the CAS docs I'm sure cause a few feathers to be ruffled
[11:56:50 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> did 2.4 work in JDK5?
[11:58:36 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we never tried
[12:10:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> should this page: http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UPC/2.7
[12:10:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> just go away?
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[12:18:15 EDT(-0400)] * apetro_work_desk (n=apetro@uni1.unicon.net) has joined ##uportal
[12:18:30 EDT(-0400)] * Topic is 'how many divs is too many?' set by apetro_work_desk on 2007-08-30 12:18:30 EDT(-0400)
[12:19:45 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> there can never be enough divs! (they're like td's but better right?)
[12:21:06 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> lol
[12:21:33 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> and they're easier to nest. When nesting tds you had to deal with adding new table and tr elements too, with divs you can just have at it.
[12:21:43 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> lol
[12:21:52 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so should this page: http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UPC/2.7 just go away?
[12:22:08 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I've dedicated today (for better or worse) to wiki cleanup
[12:22:13 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> starting with release related pages
[12:24:54 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> that 2.7 page should go away. Possibly we need to find / have a "feature ideas" page and slam the ideas for things uPortal could do onto that, if it's valuable at all. Makes a nice distinction
[12:24:58 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> between the actual roadmap
[12:25:00 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> what we plan to do
[12:25:06 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> and the universe of interesting ideas of things we could do
[12:25:19 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> by having a place for the latter, it's easier to keep the former real
[12:25:56 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> ("Bob, that's a great idea you have, but I'm not sure what resources are on it or where it fits in the roadmap, so I've moved it into the direction ideas page for further discussion.")
[12:26:10 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> rolls off the tongue better than "No, your idea doesn't belong on the roadmap. I deleted it.")
[12:26:49 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> (This is Andrew starting to think like a steering committee member.)
[12:27:29 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[12:27:35 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well blowing that away will be nice
[12:28:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I started going through Jira yesterday and there are a lot of issues in there that belong in that "feature ideas" area and not in the issue tracker
[12:28:29 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> heh
[12:28:30 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> there are over one hundred issues with no affects or fix versions set
[12:28:39 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that are mainly random ideas from people
[12:28:58 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I guess JIRA was the easiest place for them to go...and get forgotten
[12:29:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yup
[12:29:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that is the problem
[12:29:20 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if they don't affect something
[12:29:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and aren't assigned to something
[12:29:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> they just dissapear
[12:44:09 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> Moving those out into the wiki for discussion with a stated offer of, hey, any of these becomes actionable, smoosh them right back into Jira, sounds good
[12:44:26 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> This is excellent, all getting onto the same bandwagon
[12:44:31 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[12:44:42 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> Read Any Newman's steering committee position statement?
[12:44:46 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> Andy, rather
[12:45:00 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> no
[12:45:02 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> where is it?
[12:45:27 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> are those public?
[12:52:06 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> I thought so. My bad if they're not. Unicon's designated voter got me involved in reviewing them to figure out Unicon's input, so I guess I don't feel too bad if I'm not actually supposed to have direct access.
[12:52:20 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> heh
[12:52:26 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/JSG/2007+Summer+Elections
[12:52:45 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I know mine are available in my user space on our own Confluence server, but that was my choice
[13:27:01 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> it's clear that people are reading the irc logs in the wiki /looks at Scott B.
[13:27:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> lol
[14:05:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UPC/Release+Notes
[14:05:30 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> slightly cleaned up the release notes page
[14:05:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the 2.6 and 2.5 release pages are all standardized
[14:05:59 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if there is real want they could be applied back to the previous releases too
[14:06:07 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> but that is a lot of work that I don't feel like doing
[14:15:49 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> Would a Release Notes template help?
[14:15:59 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> not to retrofit, but going forward
[14:16:03 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> or did you already do that
[14:16:08 EDT(-0400)] * pberry looks
[14:16:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> already did that (wink)
[14:16:21 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> ah, brilliant
[14:16:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> next is writing up a "How to cut a release" page
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[15:40:53 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> hey apetro_work_desk
[15:41:00 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> does this look like all the steps: http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UPC/Cutting+a+uPortal+Release
[15:41:58 EDT(-0400)] * lescour successfully gets cas proxying to work
[15:42:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yay!
[15:42:09 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> well, it's in rails
[15:42:16 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> but next step is java
[15:42:56 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> lescour congratulations on the cas proxying
[15:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> took a bit to work my head around it
[15:43:18 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> it has some art to it
[15:44:37 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> EricDalquist those look like good steps . Maybe something about emailing lists?
[15:44:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah yes
[15:45:01 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> any opinions on the http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UPC/Releases page?
[15:45:09 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> most of the things it links to have been updated
[15:45:24 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> I'm not sure batch transitioning Jira issues to "closed" is helpful. Maybe. In the past we've tried to use "closed" as the state that follows "resolved" when the requestor verifies that the solution meets the need, but of course that never took off eitehr
[15:45:57 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> "Closed" issues are harder to maintain – gotta un-close them in order to edit them, e.g. to give them a more effective summary etc.
[15:46:08 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> which also isn't the end of the world. Maybe it's an appropriate barrier to messing with old issues.
[15:46:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that is my thinking
[15:46:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> once something is released I'd rather make it more difficult to mess with the issues related to it
[15:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well the resolved issues related to it
[15:47:07 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> sure
[15:47:14 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> long as I have Jira admin, doesn't bother me that much. (smile)
[15:47:32 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I believe anyone in the uportal-dev group can re-open issues
[15:47:49 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> why does the /Releases page link to the UPT Jira issue tracker? Are we using that tracker for the release-that-will-be-called-uportal-3 ?
[15:48:15 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> good catch
[15:48:17 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> or is the-new-uPortal-3 going to be modeled as a further version in the UP issue tracker?
[15:48:20 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that needs to get removed
[15:48:30 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> k. I thought maybe I'd lost track of the plan there.
[15:49:15 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> nope, issues for uP3 are in the UP project
[15:49:23 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> these pages look very nice. They're more navigable, they're easier to read, they're less noisy
[15:49:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the UPT project is 'closed' as far as new issues cannot be created there
[15:49:43 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> just slightly possibly we'll all get beaten up a little less about the wiki being unusable as a result of these efforts
[15:49:46 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> thanks .... trying to do wiki cleanup one little section at a time
[15:50:16 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> you're doing a great job. It's real work, but it's also true that it's only a couple days of work, so it's been kind of silly as a project for things to be so messy
[15:50:29 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> ongoing efforts to get better at nailing low hanging fruits
[15:50:54 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I think the uPortal space home page will be my next target
[15:50:56 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> speaking of which, I'm off to a conference call.
[15:51:05 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> though having people in here to provide quick feedback is a must when doing this
[15:51:56 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> it helps. It's also a productivity drain. There's a balance. I would love to find a way to shake free a week or two of my time to work full time on the uPortal manual
[15:52:01 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> it could so rock.
[15:52:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[15:52:34 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> short of that focused attention, though, hard to make progress. vis., you focus on making the wiki usable, and there's progress.
[15:55:36 EDT(-0400)] * lescour looks for the number for the cof call
[16:17:29 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> actually - interestingly enough
[16:17:36 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> I've recieved several comments from Sakai people
[16:17:50 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> that the JA-SIG wiki is great, unlike the terribly disorganized SakaiPedia
[16:18:03 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> I have to admit, SakaiPedia seldom rises above the level of snips from the dev list
[16:18:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> wow
[16:18:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> all that does is make me feel bad for SakaiPedia
[16:18:43 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> though our wiki has been steadily improving
[16:20:34 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> SakaiPedia is a disaster
[16:20:50 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> mostly because it hardly ever takes a position on anything best-practice related
[16:20:55 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> just collects lots of "I do this..."
[16:20:59 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah
[16:21:07 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> at least we have Andrew's best practices in our wiki... (wink)
[16:21:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[16:21:22 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> thank you apetro_work_desk
[16:21:29 EDT(-0400)] <jayshao_> God bless your soul
[16:29:18 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> http://blogs.csuchico.edu/ik/2007/06/15/fear-and-loathing-the-chicopedia/
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[16:47:00 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we've been desperately trying to avoid the -pedia thing
[17:27:47 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> I do enjoy filling up that wiki
[17:28:26 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> My advice and practices tend towards "small deployment" advice, though. I'm skeptical of complexity because the Yale environment wasn't very complex and because the consulting I've done since then has largely been for small portal deployments.
[17:29:21 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> Using source control is a stretch, so doing fancy-pants merges, clustering, and WS-deathstar approaches isn't something I do a lot of come to value.
[17:30:14 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> so it's good to get other people involved. The advice out of a Rutgers, a Wisconsin may have some other different perspectives to bring to bear
[17:32:28 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> As simple as you need. There is no need to do complex things for the sake of being complex.
[17:32:52 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> the casproxy doesn't work against 3.1, only 2.x. interesting
[17:34:16 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> that doesn't sound good
[17:37:43 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> hopefully it's an ssl/cert/hostname issue. i don't have control over that box
[17:38:56 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I've seen most of our SSL issues go away with the recent JVMs as they have less sucky built-in keystores
[17:39:09 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and we have a wildcard cert esrvice
[17:39:11 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> service
[17:39:23 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> so, no more of this self-signed nightmare
[17:39:54 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> cool. self-signed certs are just a huge pain
[17:58:50 EDT(-0400)] <esm> wow the chat room came alive (smile)
[17:58:53 EDT(-0400)] <esm> or maybe I just woke up
[17:58:57 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> heh
[17:59:28 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i'm buried in a sakai course management service implementation
[17:59:33 EDT(-0400)] <esm> and keep finding niggling little bugs
[18:04:23 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> lescour : the casproxy doesn't work against 3.1, only 2.x. interesting
[18:04:27 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> say what?
[18:04:40 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> CAS 3.1 and CAS 2 are (supposed to be) protocol compatible
[18:04:43 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> what proxy doesn't work?
[18:12:57 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> it looks to be some sort of problem with the installation on that 3.1
[18:13:36 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> k
[18:14:37 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> yes, definitely.
[18:14:55 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> i uninstalled the 2.x on the box i control
[18:14:59 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> and put 3.1 on
[18:15:03 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> and it works against that
[18:22:03 EDT(-0400)] <apetro_work_desk> excellent
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