jasig-ssp IRC Logs-2013-04-03

Owned by Apereo Infrastructure
Last updated: Apr 03, 2013
12 min read

[16:18:20 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> help me think through the term filter. The list of terms should be current and future terms only. should the list of terms in the filter be a distinct list from external_course_term or external_term?

[16:18:48 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> well

[16:19:05 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> external_term would already be a distinct list and we know now and future

[16:19:06 CDT(-0500)] <js70> I would suggest external_term as long as it is a valid list.

[16:19:10 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> yesterday we talked about how the program filter should only contain programs with at least one required course

[16:19:31 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> external_course_term would have the same term duplicates possibly thousands of time

[16:19:43 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> further we talked about how in the long run the idea was that selecting a filter higher on the screen would have the effect of limiting filters further down on the screen

[16:20:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so if we wanted to be consistent it (the term filter) would have to only contain terms with at least one course offering/binding

[16:20:34 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> without a program selection, there's almost no way all the future terms won't be in the table for at least one course

[16:21:09 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> so doing a distinct would produce the same list as external_term

[16:21:18 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> yes

[16:21:43 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> but there's a possibility that with a program filter, there could be terms eliminated based on course_term

[16:21:47 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> if you're willing to accept that sometimes it's !(yes)

[16:22:08 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> so be consistent and use course_term and eat the overhead?

[16:22:27 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> imho the front end just needs to decide on the functional rule and let the backend decide how to serve the data most efficiently

[16:23:03 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> efficiency being this backend's #1 concern, as we all know (smile)

[16:23:57 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I just hate extra work

[16:25:21 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> imho we need to give up on the "filters flow downhill" thing

[16:25:31 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> or at least make it a secondary, follow-on feature

[16:25:50 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> just throw all your searchable values into those pulldowns and let people have at it

[16:25:51 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> secondary for sure

[16:26:18 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> it's not like advisors are going to be completely rudderless, i wouldnt think. you'd hope they kinda know what's available in which program roughly when

[16:31:22 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> what does the user shading mean in the caseload assignment tool?

[16:31:47 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> I think it has to do with their appointment date

[16:31:50 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> let me check

[16:32:02 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> I thought it had to do with an active alert

[16:32:13 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> i could be wrong

[16:32:18 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> let me double check

[16:32:35 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood where do map_plan.is_accepted and date_accepted come into play? i'm not seeing an "acceptance" feature in the wireframes

[16:33:03 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> not in the wireframes. Russ told me last night that it may go away. he's supposed to check today

[16:33:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> Patty_ you talking about caseload assignment or caseload search?

[16:33:29 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood great, then i will gleefully ignore it

[16:33:45 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> red = missing appt, yellow = early alert (that may be backwards)

[16:34:49 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood how about is_pledge

[16:35:04 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> caseload assignment

[16:35:13 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> and one more question for this group

[16:35:22 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> if I ask someone to retake the intake form

[16:35:28 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> si all their previous data deleted?

[16:35:38 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> yes

[16:35:39 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> Patty_ not sure on color coding in caseload assignment… are you talking maybe about the greyed out fields in that first accordion fold?

[16:36:11 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> I've got a red shading for a student in caseload assignment

[16:36:18 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> he has an alert and my other student doesn't

[16:36:27 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> that should be that the appt is today

[16:37:03 CDT(-0500)] <Patty_> or maybe past-due

[16:37:08 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> yes

[16:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> // set apppointment date color first. early alert will over-ride appointment color.

[16:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> if (row.get('currentAppointmentStartTime') != null)

[16:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> {

[16:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> if ( me.formUtils.dateWithin(today, tomorrow, row.get('currentAppointmentStartTime') ) )

[16:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> {

[16:39:25 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> cls = 'caseload-appointment-indicator'

[16:39:25 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> }

[16:39:26 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> }

[16:39:26 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon>

[16:39:27 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> // early alert color will over-ride the appointment date

[16:39:27 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> if ( row.get('numberOfEarlyAlerts') != null)

[16:39:28 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> {

[16:39:28 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> if (row.get('numberOfEarlyAlerts') > 0)

[16:39:29 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> {

[16:39:53 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> if the appointment is soon, it's one color, if they have early alerts its another

[16:40:11 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> the early alert highlight takes priority

[16:47:11 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood sorry if i missed your reply… 'net seems to be repeatedly dropping over here… are we supporting map_plan.is_plegde?

[16:47:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> pledge

[16:47:38 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> no, not yet at least

[16:47:42 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> k

[16:48:04 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood can advisors edit credit hours for a planned course?

[16:48:13 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> yes

[16:48:30 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> is that in the wireframes?

[16:48:44 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> not yet

[16:48:56 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> k

[16:49:11 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I forwarded you the mock-ups this morning. haven't added to the specs yet

[16:50:23 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> oh i see it

[16:50:33 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> had been fixated on the elective type management screen

[16:50:38 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> thx

[16:52:22 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> map_plan_course. max_credit_hours vs total_credit_hours vs changed_credit_hours

[16:52:30 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i believe max_credit_hours is copied from external

[16:52:45 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> we may need to make that field a drop-down with the valid values between and including min and max

[16:52:47 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> what do the other two do… something to do with advisor overrides, presumably?

[16:53:09 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so min, max, and actual?

[16:53:47 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> if min = 3 and max = 5, then display 3, 4, 5 in a drop down

[16:53:58 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but for the db...

[16:54:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> min, max, and actual?

[16:54:23 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I need to check on the max, total and changed

[16:54:29 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> k

[16:54:45 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> for the pulldown… i get that… but also thought the rule was generally "the advisor always knows best"

[16:54:48 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so maybe not worth the effort?

[16:55:49 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> if we have the institution ranges in the external table, that would be more exact than any advisor

[16:56:03 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> and my advisor didn't always know best

[16:56:08 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> hah

[16:56:37 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> also… along those lines. do we really need min and max in the operational model? if what we care about for long-term storage is what the advisor actually selected for the plan, wouldn't we just need to store the actual hours on the plan?

[16:56:45 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> the plan-course i mean

[16:57:28 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> the smartest thing my advisor did was call campus security when I told him I was going to shove him inside my book bag if he didn't help me

[16:57:55 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> you do need a lot of help, jason

[16:58:16 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> ok. so here's what i'm going to do

[16:58:37 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> lol

[16:58:39 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I need to find out what the other hour definitions are. I don't see why we need anything but actual for the course

[16:58:53 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I told you that cloning me would be a bad idea

[16:59:24 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> consistent with my theme of ruthless minimization today… i'm going to put an actual_credit_hours on map_plan_course and we'll pull max and mins from external

[17:00:33 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> for now, the only thing the max and mins are needed for are to 1) display the min value in the list of courses before a course is dragged. 2) validate (or drop down) that the advisor isn't editing the hours above the max

[17:00:50 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> k

[17:01:20 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> has is_transcript been removed from the plan_course table? or just not in the phase 1 implementation?

[17:01:28 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> not needed for phase 1

[17:01:49 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> but still remains?

[17:02:25 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> where is that in the mockups? don't see it even in this morning's course detail edit dialog

[17:02:46 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> or is that supposed to come from external?

[17:02:58 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> it's plan_course-scoped, right?

[17:03:03 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so couldn't come from external...

[17:03:30 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> it's a check performed. if a course dragged into a term already exists on the transcript (external_student_transcript_course), then the field is marked. it could potentially be done with a join too

[17:06:15 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> zow

[17:06:24 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> ok

[17:09:19 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> will post my phase 2 operational model shortly

[17:27:10 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> Dan- are you proposing that the phase 1 definition is the only functionality developed for phase 1?

[17:28:17 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> for example: the map_plan doesn't have total_term_hours any longer. Does that mean it won't be developed or the value will be calculated?

[17:28:27 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i'm suggesting that we get all that stuff done before we go on to anything else

[17:28:51 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> after that i think it's less of a project plan and more of a set of feature groupings

[17:29:18 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> ok. we need to sync up then. not right now though

[17:29:22 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> for total term hours… we will support that on screen and in reports… but i look at that field as an optimization

[17:29:35 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so if it actually helps somebody to add it, great

[17:29:40 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but not going to force it as part of the model

[17:29:50 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> so phase 1 calc it, future maybe store it?

[17:30:00 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> yes.

[17:30:02 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm just trying to document the UI and reqs

[17:30:09 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> yep. np.

[17:30:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i will add that note

[17:31:26 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> added in big fat italics

[17:31:32 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> or rather, small, skinny italics

[17:31:48 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> for map_plan_courses.credit_hours, it should be external_course.min_credit_hours. I probably told you max before. I can change the doc, but just to clarify

[17:31:58 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm not worried about it now

[17:32:30 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> TonyUnicon i had missed a few fields in phase 1. just now i added external_course.is_dev, map_plan_course.is_dev, and map_plan_course.order_in_term

[17:33:29 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood credit_hours will default to min_credit_hours? that's fine.

[17:33:42 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> see you already updated. thx

[17:34:41 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm going to change a whole bunch of stuff on it later so that we go the whole week without a clear direction.

[17:45:57 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> ok

[17:46:18 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> just for you Bro Namath

[17:49:51 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> eww namath

[17:50:06 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> do not invoke the name of any jets in this chat room

[17:50:45 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> you didn't get fired up from the previous comment. I knew that would do it.

[17:51:27 CDT(-0500)] <TonyUnicon> hehe

[18:01:05 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm working on finishing the MAP specs. right now, I'm defining out everything we know about now. then I'll create versions to identify phases to match what Dan has (or what we agree it needs to be). Each version will add features and so on. So far I have the display requirements drafted. https://wiki.jasig.org/display/SSP/SSP+v2.0+MAP+Tool

[18:05:52 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> holy crappy internet connection, batman

[18:07:04 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood i updated the phase 2 op model to reflect is_transcript being calculated from external_student_transcript_course… are you OK with the potential ambiguity in that calculation since the transcript table doesn't carry a course_code?

[18:08:51 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> so it would match on formatted_course

[18:09:02 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> school_id + formatted_course + term_code

[18:09:17 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> that should be fine

[18:09:21 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> thx

[18:10:46 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm going to attempt to rank the display and functional requirements on the specs page. we should discuss what's realistic to do

[18:29:21 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> JasonElwood we've got a map_term_note table in the MAP ERD

[18:29:29 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> looking at the wireframe tho...

[18:29:44 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i see maybe three scopes for notes… plan… plan-course… and term

[18:29:49 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but

[18:30:19 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> (sorry that last one should have been plan-term)

[18:31:06 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but… the pencil icon that i think i'd use to author a plan-term note actually says "note at the term and course levels"

[18:31:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> see objects 5 and 6 here https://wiki.jasig.org/display/SSP/SSP+v2.0+MAP+Tool

[18:31:45 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm working on that now. just about done

[18:31:49 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> ok

[18:31:58 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> do i at least have the three note scopes right?

[18:32:43 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> yes

[18:32:50 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> ok thx

[18:34:38 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> Plan- functional element #10. Updated when saving a plan

[18:51:05 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> back to is_transcripted....

[18:51:21 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> does that need to survive the External Data Apocalypse?

[18:51:56 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i'm worried about storing it on map_plan_course b/c a user's transcript is always growing

[18:52:16 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so it's going to have to be synced up repeatedly if we take a copy

[18:55:45 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> the transcript course wouldn't ever be removed. so if it's on the transcript when dragging, I don't think you ever have to check again

[18:56:19 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> what if i drag it onto a plan and it's not transcripted at that time

[18:56:31 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> but it raises. yeah

[18:56:40 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> well

[18:56:42 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> is there some sort of just-in-time check every time someone accesses the plan?

[18:57:09 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> i believe there is

[18:58:00 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I would need to confirm with Russ about functionality. my understanding is that it is used to identify a course that was put on a plan that already existed. not to show any course on the plan that has been transcripted. kind of checking for a plan to repeat a course

[18:58:17 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I don't believe there is, sorry.

[19:00:25 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> hmmmm

[19:00:43 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> that sounds confusing

[19:01:17 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> maybe misunderstanding

[19:01:24 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> there wouldn't be any reason to check after it has been planned because the whole intent is for the student to take the course on the plan

[19:01:51 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so is it more something that would generate an alert when you first plan a course, then never matter again>?

[19:02:26 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I believe so. unless, it is checking backwards to make sure the student took the course, but I haven't heard that mentioned yet

[19:03:31 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> if we store the transcripted state on the plan and it's a snapshot at course add time, then my concern is you end up with these plans where you see let's say 1/4 of your courses marked as transcripted, but you've been there two years

[19:03:45 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> and you're like… wtf… 1/2 of the courses i took aren't showing as transcripted?

[19:05:02 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but i think we're now agreeing with each other that this really shouldnt be a transcripted field at all? would be a just in time check when a course is added to a plan which generates an alert or similar?

[19:05:20 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> shouldnt be a persistent field, rather

[19:05:38 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I emailed Russ

[19:05:42 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> heh. thx

[19:05:51 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i'll leave it in for now

[19:05:52 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> yeah

[19:06:02 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> as a one time, persistent check

[19:06:14 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> he agreed with the approach to not store so many credit hours fields on plan_courses

[19:06:53 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> start with the min_credit_hours then update the field if an over-ride happens. my argument is that we never display the original value or provide a way to revert to it.

[19:08:01 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> that's ok. still doesn't mean we need to store the "revert to" value on the plan_course

[19:09:17 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> that's what I tried to say. only save one value. save the min_credit_hours as plan_course.credit_hours. if the advisor over-rides the value, update the credit_hours field

[19:12:09 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> k. we agree then

[19:18:43 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> "Feature Considered for Deletion" in bold+red!

[19:18:45 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> love it

[19:19:48 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> which one is that. I forgeet

[19:20:03 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> it's all over the map admin specs now

[19:28:07 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> how you could possible forget exactly what's on each of these pages, i dont know, tho

[19:29:06 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I'm slipping man

[19:31:34 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> alright

[19:31:43 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> think i've got the "phase 2" impl notes done

[19:33:21 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I generally don't forget much. comes in pretty handy. it's definitely how I'm winning my marriage

[19:34:12 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> traded spotless memory for questionable priorities. nicely done.

[19:35:15 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> you can convince anything to anybody with a shaky memory

[19:36:02 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> so I have the specs updated except for a new feature that appeared in the last two days. There's a view all button at the top now

[19:36:38 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> i need to match up what you have , especially table definitions

[19:37:24 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> should I ignore the MAP erd Tony provided?

[19:39:07 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> i'm still using it as a starting point

[19:39:29 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> but i think the point of the doc i'm working on is to come to some sort of new agreement

[19:39:41 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> right

[19:39:47 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> so… i'd say take the new doc as the authority for anything it speaks to, falling back to the erd in other cases

[19:41:17 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> I don't think anything on the MAP Admin applies any longer

[19:41:25 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> think we're going to have to take another sweep through that api again before too long

[19:44:40 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> alright. dinner with the parents. gotta run

[19:44:48 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> k

[19:44:53 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> thanks man

[19:45:54 CDT(-0500)] <dmccallum54> and wow… there's the where are you call… right on cue

[19:46:15 CDT(-0500)] <JasonElwood> have fun