[13:02:29 CDT(-0500)] <serac> hola dev amigos
[13:02:41 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> greetings, serac
[13:03:00 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> though the Greek or whatever that is is a little hard to parse
[13:03:24 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I know enough Spanish to sound like an idiot in Mexico.
[13:04:00 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> visited Windsor, Canada the other day, just because I could
[13:04:20 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> that side of the river kind of felt just like this side
[13:04:23 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Right on! Never a bad time to travel, at least to non-war-torn places.
[13:05:14 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Hmmm. I've heard folks say just the opposite about Canadians. "It was just cleaner" or somesuch.
[13:06:02 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Just looking at map.
[13:06:05 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> perhaps I needed to venture further from the influence of the states
[13:06:15 CDT(-0500)] <serac> How weird is it that it's south of the US at that point.
[13:06:29 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> yes
[13:06:38 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> 8 users in IRC. Can't say I immediately recognize the other handles
[13:07:17 CDT(-0500)] <serac> You should introduce yourself, in other words.
[13:07:27 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Or you can just keep eavesdropping I guess.
[13:07:31 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> How are things? I've got some action items to put together wiki infrastructure around, poke you guys around, putting together our Jasig conference preso
[13:08:04 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Yeah. I've got on my list to review Scott's presentation the other day and embellish for conf talk.
[13:08:12 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> ejc , smaresca , Willj , yann2 , any particular cas-dev topics you're looking to discuss this fine Friday afternoon ?
[13:08:36 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> k. I've got recordings of screenshare, audio
[13:08:37 CDT(-0500)] <yann2> apetro, no, sorry, just idling here hoping to learn more 
[13:08:51 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> pretty uncomfortable posting them unedited, so I probably won't
[13:09:14 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'm going to message Scott privately about the source ppt file.
[13:09:31 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> was just going to say, battags should have that source file, and probably should post it to that wiki page
[13:10:04 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> apetro, serac as an introduction I'm Steve Maresca (working on mod_auth_cas with Matt Smith and Phil Ames)
[13:10:32 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> Excellent, smaresca! welcome.
[13:10:38 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Hey Steve. Figured based on your uconn affil.
[13:11:04 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> apetro, thanks
[13:11:10 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> a gentleman was just asking me about mod_auth_cas support for single sign out. Perhaps some potential in further documenting, examples of that.
[13:11:55 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It works afaik, so must be a docu problem.
[13:12:12 CDT(-0500)] <serac> apetro, this the page you mean:https://wiki.jasig.org/display/CAS/2011-05-11+Community+Call
[13:12:12 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> yes indeed; we'll be having some form of meeting in the next week or two to discuss docs/next steps in development, etc. Of late, I've been integrating Check for unit tests
[13:12:49 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Tests are good. And you get karma points for doing dirty work like that.
[13:12:59 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> serac , indeed that is a fine page
[13:13:09 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'll mention to Scott to post there.
[13:13:45 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> if we can ever get ahead of the curve in announcing these calls as news on the website, I suppose that would be an even more attractive place to share the cleaned, marketing-facing version of the call content
[13:13:53 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> but in the near term real world, I think that wiki page is it
[13:14:48 CDT(-0500)] <serac> We're drowning in documentation tasks.
[13:15:00 CDT(-0500)] <serac> On that note....
[13:15:00 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> true
[13:15:14 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I want to say I've done a complete 180 about version-specific documentation.
[13:15:24 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I still think it's insanely hard, but we must do it.
[13:15:36 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> yup
[13:15:50 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Toward that end I'm working on a docbook-based manual that will live in the source tree, from which we'll generate the manual.
[13:15:51 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I believe I don't have to change trajectories much to agree with your new perspective
[13:16:08 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> A+
[13:16:10 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Looks pretty promising.
[13:16:15 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> versioning the doc with the software. I like.
[13:16:19 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Me too.
[13:16:41 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> to be fair, I don't think I've always articulated that position – in the past I've been a proponent of wiki doc, e.g.
[13:16:45 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It will hopefully put the docs front and center in devs faces, and that's a good thing. You MUST deal with this along with java source changes.
[13:16:54 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> but I think the most important thing is going forward to have Documentation We Can Believe In as it were
[13:17:12 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I don't believe in it at present, for sure.
[13:17:22 CDT(-0500)] <serac> That's been the impetus for the about face.
[13:17:42 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It's riddled with version-specific information that's not necessarily noted, and stale in other places.
[13:17:52 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It's starting to be a source of significant list traffic and confusion.
[13:18:25 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> cool
[13:18:39 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I can get behind with-the-code docbook doco
[13:18:55 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> haven't been paying attention: is this idea controversial or objected-to in any way?
[13:19:18 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> my position is to avoid getting in your way politically so long as it continues to be that you're owning making progress happen
[13:19:55 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I mentioned putting manual in source in last steering call.
[13:20:00 CDT(-0500)] <serac> There was openness at least.
[13:20:11 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> on a completely unrelated note: the cas-related project I'm sitting here today working on implementing per-service custom selection of attribute to use as the "username" payload in the CAS protocol. It's kind of cute, and will share what is possibly the ugliest code I've ever produced.
[13:20:21 CDT(-0500)] <serac> But I'm trying to research the feasibility and say, "Tools are good, results are good, let's proceed."
[13:20:51 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> k. in ancient history, uPortal investigated docbook, found it good in all ways except ability to sustain developer focus on using it
[13:21:07 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> so the docbookification project actually failed, but I don't think there was any principled reason it had to fail.
[13:21:08 CDT(-0500)] <serac> History is good.
[13:21:35 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'd like to hear more about "[in]ability to sustain developer focus" in person at conference.
[13:21:46 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> that's fine
[13:21:58 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> to be fair, it was a kind of weird usage of docbook
[13:22:13 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> rather than trying to build the manual, the project was trying to come to grips with maintaining its website
[13:22:42 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'm holding up Spring as a model to emulate. They use docbook and produce excellent docs; we should too.
[13:22:47 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> bingo
[13:22:50 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> +1
[13:23:23 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It will certainly solve some problems that I think wiki is cludgy for. I guess some Confluence ninja could solve the problems, but I can't
[13:23:25 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> poke me when it hits source control and I can play with / add to it?
[13:23:28 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I can figure out XML.
[13:23:57 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Sure. I'm going to create an issue early next week if it pans out, and run it by Scott prior to committing anything.
[13:24:21 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> cool
[13:24:50 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> alright, CAS manual evolves to docbook, versioned with the code, therefore naturally forked, tagged, ideally maintained with the code. A+
[13:24:55 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> other news / items / issues?
[13:25:30 CDT(-0500)] <serac> nothing here
[13:26:09 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> I haven't been on a community call for about a year (job responsibility changes), though i remember this coming up in 2009
[13:26:15 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> documentation will never be easy
[13:26:24 CDT(-0500)] <serac> No argument there.
[13:27:04 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> I do a fair amount of work with the Xen.org and Splunk people...what seems to really work are domain-specific docs targeting different audiences
[13:27:54 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I think we can consider that as a refinement of our present effort to simply get out shit together.
[13:27:55 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> this http://splunk-base.splunk.com (based upon osqa.net's code) works really well
[13:27:58 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It's a mess presently.
[13:28:54 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Anyone can post question?
[13:31:56 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> serac, yes, but it can be moderated fairly easily
[13:32:15 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Moderation seems key.
[13:32:30 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> eh
[13:33:04 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I think email lists are a winning solution, so long as they're supported by good manual documentation
[13:33:13 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I see CAS's problem as with the manual
[13:33:30 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I think the lists would work better if supported by a better manual
[13:33:32 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> apetro, they're complementary
[13:33:51 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I'm reluctant to get excited about online forum / knowledgebase / Q&A software
[13:34:03 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> mailing lists are always an excellent resource, but many people are unfamilar with the concept (believe it or not)
[13:34:09 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> true
[13:34:14 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I guess I've been poisoned by Spring
[13:34:18 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> great manual
[13:34:27 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Although I do wish our list software made ad-hoc posts easier. That's the benefit of the FAQ-type system.
[13:34:33 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> lousy online forums solution that I wish had just stayed email lists
[13:34:58 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> well forums have a chicken-and-egg problem (no active population? fails)
[13:36:27 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Somehow the shib guys have their archives on google groups, http://groups.google.com/group/shibboleth-users?pli=1.
[13:36:41 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I've been meaning to investigate how they do that.
[13:37:30 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Seems like a good bit of free gravy if we could figure out how to do it. Ad-hoc querying and posting is nice for folks that don't want a long-term relationship.
[13:37:30 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> as I recall it's pretty easy, I believe I've done that for at least one jasig list.
[13:37:52 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Good to know.
[13:39:20 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> yup
[13:39:46 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> got time/interest to Just Try It and see what happens? Otherwise I can take a look and see if I can figure out whatever I once figured out about google-groups integration.
[13:39:47 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> yeah that would be nice
[13:40:05 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'd love for you to do it.
[13:40:10 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> k
[13:41:16 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> sigh. Despite my well-cultivated grouchiness about online forums software, I have to say, http://splunk-base.splunk.com/ is pretty nice.
[13:41:30 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> maybe I'm just eager to earn some badges.
[13:42:23 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> apetro, I think it succeeds because it's specifically not a forum
[13:43:11 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> get five dedicated contributors stocking it with common problems/solutions before going live, and you've won half the battle
[13:43:45 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> get five dedicated contributors to documentation, and you've won the battle?
[13:44:18 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> I'll admit it's worth thinking much more seriously about.
[13:44:35 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> Investigate docbook enough for go/no go and get momentum on that, and then revisit it?
[13:44:56 CDT(-0500)] <smaresca> I mean that, with a handful of people seeding a q&a tool like that, you've already made it useful enough to cause outsiders to pause and submit a question
[13:45:18 CDT(-0500)] <apetro> yup. I see it.
[13:45:38 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I'm fairly confident that amaresca's earlier statement about complementary aspects is right.
[13:45:48 CDT(-0500)] <serac> The user manual needs to exist and be great.
[13:46:08 CDT(-0500)] <serac> It's simply the best place for issues of planning and architecture.
[13:46:23 CDT(-0500)] <serac> Aspects that are sorely lacking at present, I should add.
[13:46:45 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I agree we should be smarter about common questions/problems.
[13:46:53 CDT(-0500)] <serac> I get sick of copy/pasting CASUM URLs.
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