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[08:53:49 EDT(-0400)] * esm (n=esm@clue.mse.jhu.edu) has joined ##uportal
[10:15:15 EDT(-0400)] * EricDalquist (n=dalquist@bohemia.doit.wisc.edu) has joined ##uportal
[10:16:32 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> morning
[10:24:22 EDT(-0400)] * pberry (n=pberry@waldorf.CSUChico.EDU) has joined ##uportal
[10:25:15 EDT(-0400)] * pberry (n=pberry@waldorf.CSUChico.EDU) has joined ##uportal
[10:29:11 EDT(-0400)] <esm> meetings 4 liiiiiife
[10:35:08 EDT(-0400)] <esm> bbiab.
[10:36:53 EDT(-0400)] <esm> ooops meeting is delayed
[10:37:05 EDT(-0400)] <esm> we're looking hard at Sun's ZFS file system
[10:37:12 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> mmm
[10:37:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> from all I've read that is a pretty sweet bit of tech
[10:37:26 EDT(-0400)] <esm> it looks really, really really really cool and easy
[10:37:34 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yeah same here
[10:38:38 EDT(-0400)] <esm> http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4500/
[10:38:41 EDT(-0400)] <esm> "Thumper"
[10:38:45 EDT(-0400)] <esm> 24 TB in 4 U
[10:38:55 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> wow
[10:39:14 EDT(-0400)] <esm> we're working on data curation stuff here in the library
[10:39:20 EDT(-0400)] <esm> and need some storage (smile)
[10:39:32 EDT(-0400)] <esm> cheap storage.
[10:40:24 EDT(-0400)] <esm> you can get 10 of them for 470 grand.
[10:40:31 EDT(-0400)] <esm> factor in the edu discount...
[10:52:12 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> been hearing lots of rumors about Apple porting ZFS over to OS X
[10:52:28 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> which makes me happy
[10:52:55 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> what kinds of proposals did people send in for JA-SIG?
[11:15:03 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pberry: i've heard that too
[11:15:24 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pberry: we have three xraids right now, but we're not entirely happy with them. (X-RAID + XSan)
[11:15:51 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> bummer
[11:16:05 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we're not happy with our Dell crap if that makes you feel any better (wink)
[11:16:20 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> well, I can't speak for the sysadmin guys...they might love it
[11:16:47 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yeah. From a sysadmin perspective, i'm not happy with apple. They are cheap but...
[11:17:31 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> they're still pretty new to this area...
[11:17:41 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> not that it's a valid excuse for crappy products...
[11:17:45 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I'm just sayin'
[11:17:50 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yep, but we have two (or is it three) generations of x-raids
[11:17:59 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I was always wondering why they wanted in on this market
[11:19:16 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yeah i was curious too. They just had the right price point, especially for XSan.
[11:20:50 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> wow, google desktop for mac is out
[11:21:22 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> http://desktop.google.com/mac/
[11:22:47 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> w00h00, just got notice that one of my proposals for JA-SIG was accepted
[11:23:28 EDT(-0400)] * esm cheers
[11:23:31 EDT(-0400)] <esm> topic?
[11:23:43 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> Lessons Learned from Rails Development
[11:24:06 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I wanted to call it "What Java Can Learn From Rails" but thought better of it (wink)
[11:24:26 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I'm hoping I get another accepted that was for JIRA
[11:25:03 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> "Pragmatic Issue Tracking with JIRA"
[11:25:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'm wondering what google desktop for osx will give me that spotlight doesn't
[11:25:45 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> Spotlight doesn't send your searches to google...?
[11:25:48 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> (wink)
[11:26:06 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pberry: cool. good call on the rails name (wink) I haven't touched Ruby but I'm interested in knowing more.
[11:26:07 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> woohoo
[11:26:45 EDT(-0400)] <esm> well, i'm not that interested in ruby
[11:26:57 EDT(-0400)] <esm> other than to know another language and pad the resume at this point (smile)
[11:26:58 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> esm: yeah, it's funny...we run uPortal, JIRA, we're getting Confluence going...so we deploy lots of Java. But damn was Rails fun
[11:27:24 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pberry: cool. Well I guess I will have to get sucked in. I need to learn Python as well.
[11:27:59 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i'm just a slave to my IDE.
[11:28:10 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> esm: we've used python to replace perl for admin scripting type stuff
[11:28:11 EDT(-0400)] <esm> it feels weird going back to vim.
[11:28:28 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I'm sure I drive my boss crazy with all the languages
[11:28:30 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pberry: yeah cool! Perl is so awful. I mean as far as supporting it goes.
[11:28:50 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> We have legacy perl and php of course...
[11:29:08 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> But new stuff for the web is rails and new admin stuff is python
[11:29:23 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> although, it's kinda odd we don't use ruby for admin scripting...
[11:29:27 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> but...we just don't
[11:29:32 EDT(-0400)] * pberry shrugs
[11:30:02 EDT(-0400)] <esm> We have a little perl, quite a bit of PHP, at least as much Java. For admin stuff we do shell scripting, but we're not doing very complex things.
[11:31:03 EDT(-0400)] <esm> ack late for lunch meeting
[11:31:04 EDT(-0400)] <esm> bbib
[11:31:08 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> If you saw somebody writing servlets in Java today and they weren't already using a framework, what would people recommend? Spring?
[11:31:20 EDT(-0400)] <esm> pring.
[11:31:21 EDT(-0400)] <esm> spring
[11:31:33 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> spring
[11:31:40 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if it is complex
[11:31:42 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> spring =
[11:31:45 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> spring + webflow
[11:32:08 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I just know a guy who isn't using anything and he's always complaining
[11:32:16 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> it's like...dude...somebody already did that work for you
[11:32:18 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> USE IT
[11:32:21 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[11:32:27 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[11:32:31 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> spring mvc + webflow
[11:32:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> + hibernate
[11:32:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> it is really neat how little code you need to write
[11:32:53 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> + maven
[11:33:00 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> then you don't have to write build scripts either
[11:33:21 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> oh man, if I try and sell all that at once his head will explode
[11:33:30 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> baby steps (smile)
[11:33:58 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> :
[11:34:00 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[11:34:17 EDT(-0400)] * pberry continues to curse the oracle thin drivers and their lack of reconnect
[11:35:20 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> don't you use any sort of pooling lib?
[11:37:24 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> built-in
[11:37:47 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah
[11:37:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[11:37:56 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we don't touch the built in pooling
[11:38:05 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we use tomcat managed jndi pools
[11:38:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> which uses commons-dbcp
[11:38:16 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so we do connection validation and pruning
[11:38:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> via the dbcp options
[11:38:30 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> oooooh
[11:38:42 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> yeah, we thought using Oracle stuff would be "better"
[11:38:44 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> hahahahahaha
[11:39:04 EDT(-0400)] * pberry stabs Ellison voodoo doll
[11:39:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I believe Oracle actually recommends not using their pooling functions unless they are your only choice
[11:39:32 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> brilliant
[11:39:41 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> well, summer upgrade is coming
[11:39:48 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we can take care of it then
[11:40:01 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> here is an example context.xml from one of our portlets: (hopefully I don't flood off for this ...)
[11:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> <Context>
[11:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> <Resource name="jdbc/BookmarksDb"
[11:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> auth="Container"
[11:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> factory="org.apache.commons.dbcp.BasicDataSourceFactory"
[11:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> type="javax.sql.DataSource"
[11:40:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> username="@hibernate.connection.username@"
[11:40:06 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> password="@hibernate.connection.password@"
[11:40:08 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> url="@hibernate.connection.url@"
[11:40:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> driverClassName="@hibernate.connection.driver_class@"
[11:40:12 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> initialSize="2"
[11:40:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> maxActive="25"
[11:40:16 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> maxIdle="8"
[11:40:18 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> minIdle="4"
[11:40:20 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> maxWait="1000"
[11:40:22 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> validationQuery="SELECT 1 FROM DUAL"
[11:40:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> testWhileIdle="true"
[11:40:26 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> timeBetweenEvictionRunsMillis="60000"
[11:40:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> numTestsPerEvictionRun="4"
[11:40:30 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> minEvictableIdleTimeMillis="3600000"
[11:40:32 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> connectionProperties="oracle.net.CONNECT_TIMEOUT=2;oracle.net.READ_TIMEOUT=30000;"
[11:40:34 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> removeAbandoned="true"
[11:40:36 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> removeAbandonedTimeout="300"/>
[11:40:38 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> </Context>
[11:40:55 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so that runs SELECT 1 FROM DUAL on each connection before it is checked out of the pool
[11:41:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and there is a background timer that checks old connections for validity every 60 seconds
[11:41:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> very nicely maintains the pool
[11:42:01 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> yeah, we need that
[12:33:44 EDT(-0400)] * deuce (n=deuce@uni1.unicon.net) has joined ##uportal
[12:35:38 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> hola
[12:43:52 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> como estas
[12:46:01 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> hey what's the state of up3 presently? I tried to pull down the latest yesterday and ran into some issues. I didn't get a chance to track them down, but i was just wondering if it's in a sane state
[12:48:26 EDT(-0400)] * pberry stares blankly. blinks.
[12:49:33 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> specifically, the README fails on item #1 .. installing the jasig pom into the local repo
[12:49:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> hey there deuce
[12:49:58 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that readme needs to be deleted
[12:50:04 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> wassup, sir eric
[12:50:12 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> haha great
[12:50:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UP3/Building+and+Deploying
[12:50:36 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> bonus .. thx
[12:50:39 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'm working on writing up the docs right now for working with the latest version
[12:50:56 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that should get you through the checkout/bootstrap/build/install
[12:51:06 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> mostly
[12:51:12 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> (smile)
[12:51:42 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> there is a build.xml in the root of the project now
[12:51:47 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> with the following targets:
[12:51:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> deploy Deploys the uP3 EAR to Tomcat
[12:51:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> deploy-up3war Deploys the uP3 WAR to Tomcat (Used when doing uP3 development)
[12:51:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> init-db Drops exsiting tables, creates needed tables then populates them
[12:51:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> init-portal Configures the database, deploys all resources to Tomcat
[12:52:05 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> initially you should be able to checkout and just run 'ant init-portal'
[12:52:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well
[12:52:35 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if you have that JTA artifact installed in your local repo (sun and their PITA licenses)
[12:52:54 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that init-portal will install the needed uP3 speficic artifacts
[12:53:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> run the maven package goal
[12:53:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> which creates an EAR
[12:53:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and runs the EAR deployer tool to dump it into tomcat
[12:55:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'll make it a point to get that doc finished today
[12:58:22 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> let me know how it goes
[13:00:13 EDT(-0400)] <deuce> willdo
[14:39:29 EDT(-0400)] * [deuce] (n=deuce@uni1.unicon.net) has joined ##uportal
[15:18:06 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> hey [deuce] I added more info here: http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UP3/Building+and+Deploying
[15:18:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> mind letting me know if it reads weird or there is information missing as you go through it?
[15:48:50 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> sweet, my JIRA proposal got into JASIG as well
[15:51:56 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> i sure will, eric
[15:52:02 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> thanks
[16:21:04 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> well, it built and install ok .. but no portlets are rendering
[16:21:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> hrm
[16:21:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> just empty spaces for all of them?
[16:21:28 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> does this look familiar?
[16:21:29 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> ERROR [http-8080-Processor25] rendering.PortletErrorHandlerImpl Apr/04 13:21:23.111 - handleProblem(windowId = 15) - exception raised while rendering error portlet
[16:21:29 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> java.lang.NullPointerException
[16:21:30 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> at org.jasig.portal.portlet.rendering.PortletErrorHandlerImpl.replacePortletWindowWithErrorPortlet(PortletErrorHandlerImpl.java:248)
[16:21:30 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> at org.jasig.portal.portlet.rendering.PortletErrorHandlerImpl.handleProblem(PortletErrorHandlerImpl.java:65)
[16:21:50 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> ooh .. thats actually the error portlet that's failing
[16:22:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[16:22:31 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> ah there was an exception in the db loading
[16:22:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I had just updated pluto 1.1.3 and only give it a cursory test, let me double check the pluto code
[16:22:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> what was the exception?
[16:22:58 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (I can't wait to get rid of dbloader)
[16:23:05 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> me either
[16:23:06 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> java.sql.SQLException: Constraint not found C_UP_USER_ATTR_USER_NM in table: UP_USER_ATTR in statement [ALTER TABLE UP_USER_ATTR DROP CONSTRAINT C_UP_USER_ATTR_USER_NM]
[16:23:07 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> [java] at org.hsqldb.jdbc.Util.sqlException(Unknown Source)
[16:23:18 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah yeah
[16:23:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> those are expected when going against a clean DB
[16:23:31 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> ah ok
[16:23:45 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> it isn't smart enough to see if the constraint is already there, just tries to drop em all
[16:23:50 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> right
[16:23:59 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> well, in that case it looks like a clean db loading
[16:24:09 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> DROP IF EXISTS? or is that too db-specific?
[16:24:21 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> too specific i believe
[16:24:21 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> not sure
[16:24:31 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> at this point dbloader is on its last legs
[16:24:41 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> by the summer conference it will be gone
[16:24:56 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> that's very nice to hear
[16:25:09 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> we're going to use hibernate for all table creation
[16:25:22 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> good good
[16:25:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> and do a XML -> Object mapping tool to populate the DB
[16:25:30 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> via the daos
[16:26:29 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> so, let's say i wanted to use postgres instead. I would then modify the database.properties file acordingly and add a postgresql.x.x.x.jar dependency to super and uportal-impl poms. Anything else?
[16:27:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> you need to change the hibernate dialect as well in database.properties
[16:27:28 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> right
[16:27:52 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I wouldn't be supprised if it didn't work though. there are still some simple JDBC daos
[16:30:31 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> switching configs to try the trunk ... I'll be there in ~ 5 minutes
[16:33:28 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> where would dbloader pick up database configurations now?
[16:33:33 EDT(-0400)] <esm> GAPs also doesn't use Hibernate; I had a problem with it with MySQL....
[16:34:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> . /uPortal_3.0.0/uportal3-impl/src/main/resources/properties/db/dbLoaderContext.xml
[16:34:27 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah
[16:34:40 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> part of my work is going to be mavenizing GAP and writing hib daos for it
[16:35:03 EDT(-0400)] <esm> sigh. I will do more maven refactoring tonight. Gotta get that thing moving
[16:35:10 EDT(-0400)] <esm> so we can get on to the more important stuff.
[16:35:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yup (smile)
[16:35:21 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'm nearing completion of cleaning up the caching apis
[16:35:24 EDT(-0400)] <[deuce]> ah but it uses the settings in database.properties, yes?
[16:35:33 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> using the spring-modules-cache apis
[16:35:35 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yes
[16:35:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so database.properties is the db credential info
[16:35:53 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that xml file has DB specific mapping stuff in it
[16:37:54 EDT(-0400)] <esm> horrid horrid horrid (smile)
[16:38:10 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i will have object id's cleaned up tonight.
[16:38:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> awesome
[16:38:35 EDT(-0400)] <esm> well, most of them. There is one, I forget the exact name off the top of my head
[16:38:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ok ... init-portal is done
[16:38:50 EDT(-0400)] <esm> anyway, it has to do with Portlets.
[16:38:59 EDT(-0400)] <esm> its used by a lot of classes.
[16:39:08 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ok
[16:39:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if I'm gone just chat about it here
[16:39:36 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'll check the log when I get back from soccer tonight
[16:39:45 EDT(-0400)] <esm> so I don't want to apply my "cookie cutter" solution, which is basically to inject the interface into each class... ok cool
[16:39:52 EDT(-0400)] <esm> wow. i used to play soccer.
[16:39:56 EDT(-0400)] <esm> uncannyl
[16:40:37 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> weird ... it all comes up for me ...
[16:40:45 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> from a fresh db and fresh tomcat
[16:40:53 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> the only thing I didn't clean out was my m2 repo
[16:41:25 EDT(-0400)] <esm> are the correct db jars in the webapp?
[16:42:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well he is getting the portal to render but not portlets
[16:42:15 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> anything interesting in portal.log?
[16:42:19 EDT(-0400)] <esm> oh
[16:42:28 EDT(-0400)] <esm> sorry i thought u were trying postgres
[16:42:49 EDT(-0400)] <esm> sigh i'm just confused ignore me.
[16:42:50 EDT(-0400)] <esm> its late
[16:42:56 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (smile)
[16:43:01 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i've been battling fibre-channel all day
[16:43:07 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> :/
[16:43:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I've been working with a user that has a magical microsoft proxy
[16:43:43 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if they use IE7 + ISA Server 2000 to access our portal it randomly cuts of the content being sent to the browser
[16:43:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> (this is over https mind you)
[16:43:57 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> any other browser + ISA Server is ok
[16:44:07 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> any browser w/o ISA Server is ok
[16:44:25 EDT(-0400)] <esm> WOW
[16:44:40 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> IE7 + ISA SErver going to a side door (different DNS that bypasses the l4 switch and goes directly to a machine) is ok
[16:45:31 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I think we have pixies in the tubes
[16:46:14 EDT(-0400)] <esm> when packets from the L4 switch hit your servers, are they http 1.0 or 1.1?
[16:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <esm> well, i guess that woudl mean your L4 switch is a L4-L7 switch (smile)
[16:46:57 EDT(-0400)] <esm> so if its only an L4 switch then it can't munge the packets.

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