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[09:50:01 EDT(-0400)] <esm> This
[09:50:03 EDT(-0400)] <esm> er woops
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[12:11:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> hrm ... flights from here to Rutgers for the unconf are rather expensive
[12:11:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> weird
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[12:19:59 EDT(-0400)] <ac_chan> hello
[12:20:20 EDT(-0400)] <ac_chan> has anybody here ever installed the toro/academus portlets in uportal 2.6 ?
[12:21:24 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> not I
[12:22:00 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> kinda
[12:22:14 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> Drew Wills from Unicon did a lot of work in that area for us
[12:22:32 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> We haven't pushed them to users yet though
[12:22:52 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> there are a lot of "people problems" now that the "technology problems" are behind us
[12:23:14 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> Like "can we target announcements" – yes, as long as you have a defined group.
[12:23:53 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> "I don't understand, I know who I want to target...first semester freshmen." "How do you define first semester freshmen?" "What?"
[12:24:29 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> "Is it by units, by time, first semester at chico state, etc...?" "Oh, well...that's hard."
[12:51:32 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> it's going to be the same with surveys
[13:25:15 EDT(-0400)] * esm nods
[13:25:21 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yeah we have those issues too
[13:25:56 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yay requirements!
[13:26:56 EDT(-0400)] <esm> heh. "requirements" is an idea that we have a hard time spreading to other groups...
[13:27:04 EDT(-0400)] <esm> coders understand, and their bosses understand...
[13:28:14 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> yeah, it's hard when people have these definitions of things in their head, and nobody gets all these people together and shows them that they are all thinking different things
[13:28:40 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> "Don't make me start drawing Venn diagrams!"
[13:28:56 EDT(-0400)] <esm> keep elliot away from the whiteboard
[13:32:11 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> we are finally making progress on those sort of grouping issues
[13:32:29 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> please tell me there is a magic bullet and free ponies...
[13:32:34 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> even if you have to lie to me
[13:32:53 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> just don't shot the ponies with the magic bullets
[13:33:03 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> the magic bullet seemed to be a year of meetings
[13:33:27 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> and finally people were too exhausted to put up a fight anymore
[13:33:37 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> ha
[13:34:01 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> it's truthier than you know
[13:35:26 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> bonus points for using 'truthier'
[13:38:25 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> a year of meetings sounds like the exact opposite of "magic bullets and free ponies" – that's sounds more like "it will all end in tears"
[13:38:50 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> there may be tears, but
[13:38:53 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> it will never end
[13:39:02 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> as far as i can tell
[13:39:05 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> that is very true...
[13:39:26 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> are you using anything else from toro other than announcements and surveys?
[13:39:34 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> nope
[13:39:40 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and we're not really "using" them just yet
[13:39:44 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> the surveys...
[13:39:46 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> oh man
[13:39:53 EDT(-0400)] <esm> lescour: i'm trying to get chris doyle from JHU on the channel
[13:40:00 EDT(-0400)] <esm> he has played with Toro channels
[13:40:05 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I'd avoid them if you can find something (anything) else
[13:40:06 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i'm not sure when/if they are going to prod
[13:40:40 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> it's code from a long, long time ago...that's been dragged (kicking and screaming) along for the ride
[13:41:08 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> we having them in our current academus portal
[13:41:22 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> we are going to support only announcments, calendar and survey
[13:41:30 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> when we go to 2.6
[13:41:34 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> surveys always sound like a good idea on paper...
[13:42:11 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> they are mostly just being used for student elections
[13:42:12 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> atm
[13:42:22 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> ah
[13:42:43 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> we're lucky, our Associated Students wrote their own system and then CAS-ified it
[13:42:52 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> they had all kinds of crazy rules for voting
[13:43:04 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> "Um, how about you guys figure that out yourselves."
[13:43:55 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> good plan
[13:51:20 EDT(-0400)] <lescour> looks like progress is being made on deploying toro as sub modules
[13:54:38 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> I think Drew got some good ideas with our 2.6 deployment
[13:55:00 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> oh man...I just had a 6 yr old perl script dropped on me
[13:55:04 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> and yeah, it hurt
[13:55:16 EDT(-0400)] <esm> lol
[13:55:28 EDT(-0400)] <esm> ok.... so i'm not a fan of logic in xml....
[13:55:44 EDT(-0400)] <esm> and this cocoon sitemap.xml i'm working with.... is lousy with it
[13:55:50 EDT(-0400)] <pberry> you mean like the crazy Spring stuff you can do in personDirectory.xml now? 
[13:56:20 EDT(-0400)] <esm> i mean like if's, thens, tests etc i haven't looked at pd xml in a whiel 
[13:56:31 EDT(-0400)] <esm> code should be coded.
[13:58:19 EDT(-0400)] <esm> especially when it is core logic
[13:58:36 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah that is one the neat but dangerous features of spring webflow
[13:58:42 EDT(-0400)] <esm> like, if i misplace something in this sitemap, unauthenticated people can do bad things.
[13:58:51 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> you can put a pretty significant amount of logic in the flow xml
[13:59:02 EDT(-0400)] <esm> right. cocoon flow script is pretty cool and i admire it and all
[13:59:02 EDT(-0400)] <esm> but
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[15:35:18 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> heh ... there are some private methods in uPortal marked deprecated
[15:35:22 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> not sure the point of that
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[15:40:55 EDT(-0400)] <esm> probably so devs don't use them?
[15:41:23 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> but why not just remove it ... since it is a private method you know every usage of it
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[15:43:00 EDT(-0400)] <esm> yeah but you may not want to refactor the method atm... anyway
[15:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist>
[16:32:21 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> we use getUserLayoutDOM()
[16:32:38 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yeah it is used all over the place
[16:32:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> which is why it is so weird that in DLM it is marked @deprecated
[16:32:55 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> even though its deprecated, but since there's no doc about why, i'm perfectly ok with using
[16:33:19 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well you better hope mark doesn't give me a good reason to remove it
[16:33:23 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> i thought i sent an email to the list a couple weeks ago about that.
[16:33:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> actually I wouldn't
[16:33:46 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> it is used so much I'm too lazy to try and remove it and fix all the places it is used from
[16:33:49 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> what's the replacement for it? getNode()?
[16:33:52 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> no idea
[16:34:18 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> it seems that would be it since getNode() calls getUserLayoutDOM to get the node... 
[16:34:33 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> IUserLayoutManager says // This method should be removed whenever it becomes possible
[16:34:36 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> about that method
[16:34:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> but again there is no real documentation about why or what the alternatives are
[16:34:55 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> but there's logic in getNode that i don't usually do if i'm trying to get to a node
[16:35:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> my only thought is that operating directly on the layout DOM can be dangerous
[16:35:14 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> yes, that's all i'm asking for is some doc or an alternative and i'll change my code today.
[16:35:26 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> since the layout manager may not know about changes made to the DOM object
[16:35:48 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> it doesn't know about them until you saveLayout() or updateLayout() anyway
[16:35:58 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well but like with DLM
[16:36:04 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> them==changes
[16:36:25 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> if I do addNode directly on the DOM how does it deal with that versus addNode on the IUserLayoutManager
[16:36:39 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> since DLM doesn't 'just store the dom' it stores information about changes to the dom
[16:37:03 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> I'm just wondering if the intent with that comment in IUserLayoutManager was to try and hide the DOM from client code
[16:37:13 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> right, and you have to call save or update (like when you disable autocommit on a database) to apply those changes
[16:37:17 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> don't know ... I'm not a uPortal layout manager expert by any means
[16:37:38 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> neither am i; i just recently worked with it and learned some interesting stuff...
[16:37:48 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> i'm qualified as dangerous
[16:37:57 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> but not completely knowledgable
[16:38:00 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist>
[16:38:18 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> oh so can you reply to that mailing list thread about that Jira issue that Tim opened?
[16:38:32 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so we know what to do with it?
[16:38:40 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> well, i am trying to talk through it with Tim. he reported the issue.
[16:39:11 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah ok
[16:39:14 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist>
[16:39:24 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> the thing i'm having trouble iwth is 1413 deals with data.xml from 2.6 on. 1842 addresses those in the past
[16:39:54 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> ah yes so perhaps Tim's issue just needs to change the 'affects' version field
[16:40:07 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> so that if people on earlier versions want the change they can use the patch
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[16:44:29 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> well the reason he put 2.6 in there is because I don't think he was aware of 1413
[16:45:12 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> that's what I figured and why I brought it up. I think it is a great idea to look at back porting if there are future releases on any of those branches
[16:45:54 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> if 1413 were applied to, say, 2.5.x, 2.4.x, then that's a different story.
[16:46:18 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> or that would be the other option, perhaps preferable since all the branches would be using the same code
[16:46:27 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> i think i'd like to look at this for a day or two more before we change anything about 1842.
[16:46:49 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> no problem
[16:47:09 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> just so we can get comfortable with it. like i said, going forward is not a problem. in fact we plan on implementing 2.6.x here
[16:47:22 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> but going backwards, the solution is not as easy.
[16:47:28 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> yup
[16:47:48 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> especially since we don't have anyone doing release engineering on 2.4 or 2.5
[16:48:02 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> you're more than welcome to do that if you're interested
[16:48:03 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> right.
[16:48:14 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> how's the pay ]{color}
[16:48:36 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> pberry keeps talking about ponies but I have yet to see one
[16:48:59 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> since i hate horses, i'll have to decline
[16:49:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> lol
[16:49:16 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> doritos or oreos would be more interesting to me.
[16:49:36 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> i like junk food that ends with an 'o'.
[16:49:44 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> well keep it in mind, if you ever want another 2.5 release taking the lead on the that role would be the way to get it done
[16:49:54 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> mmm cheetos
[16:49:59 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> and fritos
[16:50:10 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> there would of course be support from other devs as to how to go about being a release engineer
[16:50:45 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> since <2.6 is not in our best interests, i don't think it'll be me or Tim
[16:51:19 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> but like i said, give us a couple days to mull over 1413 and some time to understand how it all works now
[16:52:04 EDT(-0400)] <EricDalquist> cool
[16:59:23 EDT(-0400)] <agherna> and, for the record i was not aware of 1413 until today.
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